Justice for Ramdin....

[mapoui]

I not so certain you really want to use stats arguing fuh Ramdins . there arent any in his favour! all thats in Ramdins favour is that he is the best of a bad lot

compared to a} international keepers and b} what we know is required to call a keeper good...Ramdin does not cut it. in all of westindies test cricket Ramdin is just about the weakest incumbent keeper we have had

how so ? Care to elaborate on this..? oh and doh give me a 10 pager

why shud give you a 10 page reply? I thought you like any kind ah post and dem as long as they flow in batches?

no need fuh ah 10 pager...jess count the keepers we have had since say 1957.....Alexander, Murray, david Allan, Mendonc'a, Hendricks, Murray again, after Findlay, david Murray, Dujon, Williams, Junior Murray, Ridley...all excellent keepers..at least 3 of them among the best ever the game has produced.

how does Ramdin...not to mention the two bajan browns, baugh... fit in there?

you have to be good like them fellas to be confident in the postion. these guys were mostly untouchable when they were incumbent.. there has not been one single keeper since Ridley who was/is untouchable

[BallOil]

[quote="mapoui"

jess count the keepers we have had since say 1957.....Alexander, Murray, david Allan, Mendonc'a, Hendricks, Murray again, after Findlay, david Murray, Dujon, Williams, Junior Murray, Ridley...all excellent keepers..at least 3 of them among the best ever the game has produced.

are you talking about batting or their keeping abilities? tell me your top three in that list... was just joking about the length give me all you have

[BallOil]

deh will have to use 2 anyway...deh shud use 2...too many matches! and with the piks being so young its best if they have ramdin and Walton coming behind, playing T20 only!

Agreeed! like I seh earlier makes sense to avoid burn out , etc..and plan for the future... why Walton though? I'm open to all ...just curious..

Who is the ideal candidate...? a batsman that keeps or a keeper that bats?

[mapoui]

here is a stat dat is not in the books but resides in people heads..about Dujon for example... but also about the later edition of Deryck Murray, about Alexander and to a lesser extent Hendricks, and Ridley too...but not as much as Dujon and Alexander as the main men in this....

when westindies in trouble deh could be counted on...absolutley!

westindies in trouble and need runs, need an end shut down, need to eat up time ..Dujon and Aleaxander!

what used to kill the Oz in particular is dat deh wud take 5 wickets for some 100..or even less... and right there, time and again deh would run into Dujon/Gomes, or Dujun/Logie and westindies ended up with 400+

or with Alexander at 7..time and again he would wag the tail with the bowlers. or with Deryck Murray time and again with crucial fifties when things were brown

Ramdin has done that 2 to 3 times if I recall correctly..at least twice with Bravo. but he has done little with the bat in-between.

dats wat I mean..stats wont help him

deh will have to use 2 anyway...deh shud use 2...too many matches! and with the piks being so young its best if they have ramdin and Walton coming behind, playing T20 only!

Agreeed! like I seh earlier makes sense to avoid burn out , etc..and plan for the future... why Walton though? I'm open to all ...just curious..

Who is the ideal candidate...? a batsman that keeps or a keeper that bats?

[mapoui]

deh will have to use 2 anyway...deh shud use 2...too many matches! and with the piks being so young its best if they have ramdin and Walton coming behind, playing T20 only!

Agreeed! like I seh earlier makes sense to avoid burn out , etc..and plan for the future... why Walton though? I'm open to all ...just curious..

Who is the ideal candidate...? a batsman that keeps or a keeper that bats?

its the man who has the aptitude!

the Duje was a batsman who could keep. when they picked him he was a batsman deh wanted in the side but cud not bring him anywhere else but as second keeper. then luck struck and he was the man.

dujon was tearing up the shell shield with the bat but there were too many batsmen ahead of him

but when he got in as keeper he then adapted to keeping first and batting when he needed to bat.

dujon was actually picked as a pure batsman in the first test he played in australia back in the 1980s. deh picked him as keeper when David Murray went down with injury and then was out of the picture

its the man with the intelligence and skill to make use of the opportunity when it comes. thats the type you want every time

[mapoui]

[quote="mapoui"

jess count the keepers we have had since say 1957.....Alexander, Murray, david Allan, Mendonc'a, Hendricks, Murray again, after Findlay, david Murray, Dujon, Williams, Junior Murray, Ridley...all excellent keepers..at least 3 of them among the best ever the game has produced.

are you talking about batting or their keeping abilities? tell me your top three in that list... was just joking about the length give me all you have

I talking keeping and batting, relevant to a keeper..how a kpper usually bats.

my top 3 are Jackie Hendricks... the best pure keeper westindies ever produced...one of the best, if not the best, most efficient and tidy keeper, in the entire history of the game. that man was like a garbage collector leaving everything whistle clean in his wake.

Hendricks would keep to totals of 6 -700 runs and not give up a single bye or unnecessary extra. he was incrediblay tidy. you should have seen him keep! amazing! pure concentration!

next is Alexander...one of the toughest, most disciplined westindian representatiove in any sport you would ever meet. the man was pure fight and determination..and skill as keeper, especially to pace. nothing got past him from pace..not even half and quarter chances..no matter ho fast the bowling. but he was not that good to spin.

and batting! his stats are there for you to check out. in 1961 in australia, with Sobers and Kanhai in that team. along with solomon and Hunte, Alexander topped the batting averages of both sides, the series..both Oz and westindies.

third is Dujon. but you know him directly dont you?

[mapoui]

and there is one amazing cameo we had in there that I forgot to list above... a fourth jamaican...a fella by the name of Lewis, who came into the westindies side in 1971 when Findlay was dropped against Wadekars Indians who defeated westindies for the first time.

I think his first name was desmond! he was a very competent keeper and uttery dependable with the bat.

Lewis never failed westindies in the 3-4 tests he played, brought great solidity to the westindies batting that had proven brittle early in the series.

that lewis was never picked again is a tragedy that needs some explanation so good he was against the Indians.

that is one subject right there for westindian cricket writers to explore

[BallOil]

I think we both want the same thing but we can't bet on the next one without some data....

Now that you have mentioned all the top keepers here are some stats how Ramdin measured up to them...

Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending 100 50 0
CL Walcott 1948-1951 15 24 2 888 168* 40.36 3 3 1
PJL Dujon 1982-1991 79 111 11 3146 139 31.46 5 16 8
FCM Alexander 1957-1961 25 38 6 961 108 30.03 1 7 5
RD Jacobs 1998-2004 65 112 21 2577 118 28.31 3 14 12
D Ramdin 2005-2009 39 68 7 1419 166 23.26 1 8 6 investigate this query
JR Murray 1993-2002 31 41 4 853 101* 23.05 1 3 8
DL Murray 1963-1980 62 96 9 1993 91 22.90 0 11 7
DA Murray 1978-1982 19 31 3 601 84 21.46 0 3 3
JL Hendriks 1962-1969 20 32 8 447 64 18.62 0 2 4
CO Browne 1995-2005 20 30 6 387 68 16.12 0 1 7

here is the linkif this is unreadable..

Except for Walcott and Dujon who are more batsmen ...Ramdin is right up deh Now if you compare Ramdin to Dujon there is a 8 pts gap and to jacobs its a 5 point gap..

What is the margin of defeat now ah days ? if Ramdin mek 5 or 10 more runs would that make a difference? Is the current WI tail strong as yesteryears?

[BallOil]

when we look at measurable Keeping stats...Ramdin again in the mix..

Player Span Mat Inns Dis Ct St Ct WkDescending Ct Fi MD D/I
PJL Dujon 1982-1991 79 150 270 265 5 265 0 5 (5ct 0st) 1.800
RD Jacobs 1998-2004 65 122 219 207 12 207 0 7 (7ct 0st) 1.795
DL Murray 1963-1980 62 119 189 181 8 181 0 5 (5ct 0st) 1.588
D Ramdin 2005-2009 39 70 118 116 2 116 0 5 (5ct 0st) 1.685
JR Murray 1993-2002 31 57 101 98 3 98 0 5 (5ct 0st) 1.771 i
FCM Alexander 1957-1961 25 47 90 85 5 85 0 5 (5ct 0st) 1.914
CO Browne 1995-2005 20 36 81 79 2 79 0 5 (5ct 0st) 2.250
DA Murray 1978-1982 19 34 62 57 5 57 0 5 (5ct 0st) 1.823
JL Hendriks 1962-1969 20 37 47 42 5 42 0 4 (2ct 2st) 1.270
D Williams 1992-1998 11 19 42 40 2 40 0 5 (5ct 0st) 2.210
CL Walcott 1948-1951 15 30 38 27 11 27 0 4 (3ct 1st) 1.266
TM Findlay 1969-1973 10 17 21 19 2 19 0 4 (4ct 0st) 1.235

[BallOil]

here are the ODI stats...

Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0
PJL Dujon 1981-1991 167 118 36 1934 82* 23.58 2860 67.62 0 6 7
RD Jacobs 1996-2004 147 112 32 1865 80* 23.31 2662 70.06 0 9 11
JR Murray 1992-1998 50 31 6 564 86 22.56 766 73.62 0 4 3
JC Adams 1993-1999 26 21 5 353 52* 22.06 556 63.48 0 2 2
D Ramdin 2005-2010 78 61 15 884 74* 19.21 1137 77.74 0 2 2
CO Browne 1995-2005 46 32 8 415 46* 17.29 590 70.33 0 0 3
CS Baugh 2003-2008 30 22 7 223 29 14.86 325 68.61 0 0 1
D Williams 1988-1997 36 23 7 147 32* 9.18 242 60.74 0 0 4

there is a 5 runs gap between Dujon and Ramdin Dujon runs came with less pressure since WI had real batsmen back then.. Why is Adams a batman struggling with a 22 avg?

This keeping bizniz is a specialist position. Why we doh compare wicketkeepers batting stats to Bowlers?