Whatever is Happening to Gils Famous Federation?

[mapoui2]

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[Gils]

Sorry my friend but I don't vote .

If there is something you would like to know then why not simply ask .

[mapoui2]

wat do you imagine I want to ask?

I don't want to ask anything relatively of you or anyone. so it is interesting to know what you imagined I want to ask

in beating the idea of an english speaking west indian federation out of the water of possibility. you first established the impossible inclusive federation caribbean option...english, spanish, dutch and french.. as either or...inclusive or no federation at all

then you posed the europeans as federated example..which is no example at all for there is no basis for federated european unity as I pose for an english speaking west indian federation

the supposed european union or federation is opposed by a majority of all europrans. the european union was always intended by those who proposed it in the first place and have nutured that union to this fractious point to be a dictatorship run behind the scenes by a small financial oligarchy for and in their minority interest

and that is precisely what has been taking place in europe..the build up of this oligarchic control by stealth.

and farage has been fighting it. bully fuh him but at least on the european issue he is more right than any other leader.

so I am not asking anything , have no question on my mind at all. I as u..the islands and mainland Guyana. that is possible and essential for the development of the west indian people. such a state would bring about west indian prosperity and secure the future of the west indian people.

the west indian federation would have major economic ties to the Bahamas and Bermuda, Turks and Caicos, associations with Suriname, and the Dutch west indies, Cuba, Haiti, the DR and maybe later Puerto Rico if it ever successfully detaches itself form the USA.

such a west indian Federated covers extensive land and water, requires no population limitation in terms of natural internal growth. people would be able to have larger families as population growth would become valuable and not a problem as the family planning people would have us believe.

and successfully dealing with the challenges the geographical state of the federationwould pose would result in a magnificently achieved and capable west indian people, holding our own among the all the nations in the world

so what I am doing actually is not asking questions or attacking you but attacking you position which I hold to be unduly negative and not in tune with the truth on the ground

[Gils]

then you posed the europeans as federated example

I'm afraid your premise is faulty - I reminded you of your ill conceived comparison.

1) Freedom of movement across borders.

2) Monetary union

3) Political union

Accomplishments the Caribbean has yet to achieve .

These are your words on Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:58 am

what about europe and its formation into the states there currently?

I said Europe don't play sport as a team, but you didn't think that was relevant, either.

Preparation Prevents P%&$ Poor Performance.

[mapoui2]

I'm afraid your premise is faulty - I reminded you of your ill conceived comparison.

1) Freedom of movement across borders.

2) Monetary union

3) Political union

Accomplishments the Caribbean has yet to achieve .

I don't know what you are talking about nuh! I think I have understood you properly all along

anyhow..above that is exactly where I start....from where we are at... and on what I perceive as essential to west indian development which is the same as west indian survival.

that is also where we started from in the attempt at federation in 1958 and failed.

we are small individual dependent states with the need to be independent and addressing our problems, with the purpose of solving them and winning as great a security in as may be possible for us...

that is the purpose in life of individuals and collectives as defined by all the critieria that marks the english speaking west indies as a unit that must be regularized into a nation state by its citizens for their collective well-being.

it does not mean French and Spanish which with a couple of exceptions have already been regularized into settings, which if not natural at least fit. Cuba is an entity unto itself, Puerto Rico is unhappily common-wealed or weaned into the USA..the French are part of the French Nation save Haiti and the DR a US comprador.

we are on our own we multi-coloured regional english..and there is nutten at all wrong with that. we must join up and f and when we do we open up an great world of potential for ourselves..a nation of too few millions for the space we would have..of thousands of square miles of sea and land, with employment potential for many times more than we have..for great prosperity and development social/individual for our people

I have no idea what chases you from this idea, to pup up on paper insuperable opposition opposition to it

[Gils]

you first established the impossible inclusive federation caribbean option...english, spanish, dutch and french.. as either or...inclusive or no federation at all

I simply highlighted your 1:5 minority coalition was not supported by history - and mimicked the English, indiscriminately .

You continue to let your perception get in the way of reality while trying to put words in my mouth, that must be the 3rd time in as many months. .

[Gils]

So, yu dida run weh fram yu " Nobody postin this mawnin " thread 5 weeks ago an now yu waan come revive it yahso, undacova .

Ask yu a ask yes .

" The cost of freedom " thread a wait pon yu fi 10 days now, yu aguh tell me say yu neva seeit ..or it nah relevant .

[mapoui2]

yo! there are things I struggle with. not always on the ball..cant be. some threads do no move quickly. there are lots of things to do..always. keeping tract is difficult.

mih nah run from nutten. me nah fraid nutten to tell you the truth. too late fuh dat. getting too old..never at my best..jess ah struggle.

still you misunderstand what I say... and I don't know how to correct you. I understand all you say but nothing is written in stone not my conclusion nor yours but I would wager that my own would have more traction in reality than yours.

you do not appear to approach things from a class perspective.... that may be a difficulty for you.

if you do you would see the options clearer and may be able to portion probability to those that you do see.

a paradigm is failing... that of exploitation of man by himself. that failure threatens the globe. short of the globe there is bound to be economic collapse soon enough. what are our options in the west indies?

those options cannot include the failed model capitalism as we have know it. that is done save police state descending into Brave New World and the end of humanity by that route?

what would be our options?

there is only one positive option for humanity as a whole..socialism or democracy..with the social power in popular hands and as diffused as it necessary for social success. there must be freedom for people at all organizational levels to create in terms of the way they will govern themselves according to need and resources.

that is now as clear as day. humanity or example needs truth to become the basis of existence. this cannot be if there is divided exploitative society for there is and would always be organizational lies/propaganda necessary for the upkeep of some exploitative status quo or class.

for there to be universal truth available ..that is the truth we have proven about existence on any day we are still here plus all that is reasonably surmised or hypothesized up to that point..then there must be a system in place that is not hurt by the truth. and only if power is popular, in the hands of the people is that possible. for if all are in charge..that is society functions for the well-being and survival of society and not for the profit of any domineering minority..then no truth hurts such a society. all discovery can be announced, its application positive and not weaponized first to protect a minority status quo... but utilized by and for the people.. or not utilized for the same reason

so the only option for humanity, the next step in social evolution, is a democratic dispensation to replace what we have called capitalism but is anything but. it is merely a financial dictatorship. it must include business cycles but not capitalism. that is easy to understand. there will be no capitalist class. the social organisation would not allow for the re- evolution of any such thing.

so in the event of economic collapse what are we to do in the region?

that to my mind gives us a chance to federate in a new way..really associate if the people move in their individual states creating democracy as they go. creating in collapse is one of the greatest possible creative moment socially. they people are faced with disaster..often in the absence of a collapsed central authority. the system is broken and for survival they must govern themselves and find ways to do so when all they have know has broken down.

the people respond by creating new forms of government responsive at once to popular need..the very democracy I am talking about. when the people do this any re-established central authority tries to kill it. that was the crime of Lenin and the Bolsheviks. they destroyed the popular power and established a bureaucratic capitalism that was nothing but dictatorship..on the back of the popular Soviet State the people had successfully created that saved Russia.

well the principle of the people taking society forward by creativity in crisis is universal and opposed to the exploitative state. you see! so with the coming collapse we must look to how it affects the world in all its parts and how the creativity of the people in response can find full expression and to ensure there can be no rise up of minority class power again to surpress what the people make..create.

so if we assume that all english west indian territories go through such a creative process then the regional state they can create would be one of association and not constitutional government as I had in mind..which constitutional option would remain if there is no collapse and we must proceed more or less as we have .

capitalism creates rather produces a certain type of citizen that you clearly have no faith in. neither do I. capitalism is human corruption and degradation, raising to the heights of society the worst classes of people while surpressing all that is worthy, courageous, truthful etc. a social cricis in which there is total breakdown requiring the very courage and strength to create that capitalism discourages immediately raises that class of people to the front of society. the democracy they create requires the opposite human qualities that capitalism praises and raises, that deepened over time into habitual and routine self centred behaviour, informed personalities etc

that is the process of society. revolution breaks from the past and brings new forces of production into dominance which is equal to social change, and requires new social organisation and behaviour. that is basically what would be happening come the collapse or revolution around the world. what has happened under all the talk is the development of a technological base the established way could not/cannot handle. technological advance has outstripped capitalisms' ability to bring on stream, to utilize positively and we need new organisation to do so. the evidence of this is simple and clear. in the midst of all the shortages, poverty, war, debt etc..are the means to solve all by the general application of the technological stage achieved on this day..by this day.

there is no need for starvation, shortages period. global productive forces in all areas of production has already outstripped human demand in areas in which such capacity is free to roll. and if such forces were full applied here would be no jobs in capitalism for all would be robotized and the system would crash anyway. for while there exists exponential productive capacity the capacity to consume by capitalism population reduced steadily in the stagnation cause but the ability of technology /science to meet all human material need. the problem therefore is not capacity,shortage of human capability of anything of the sort. the problem is systematic..they way society is organized.

we have arrved at the limit of such social organization hence the crisis. ways must be found to free up human capacity and technique, focus them on the problems at hand. profit has hidden such reality before. now its in the open and we must deal with it positively or die.

transformation is life. we call it change..interchangeable words. the working class must takeover society..the people must take over society the popular will must prevail. but the working class/ordianry must ot take over society only to remain a working class and ordinary. the wealth of society now in the hands of the people there is no need to hold anything back. the full technological stage must be applied, people freed from drudge work and the wealth applied to social development so that all go to school. all have health and higher levels of employment in the social focus of society which would be the well being of the society itself and its indefinite development.

why? because the real question emerge..has already emerged..how does society survive indefinitely in an evolutionary universe?

we have now arrived at the edges of infinity for us and the absolute need of finding a way to approach it successfully.

we go back to the idea of business. now this is a big and involved area that requires much detailed explanation. but let it be sufficient to say business it is a very good was of taking a society forward. business not capitalism...2 different things. so people should be able to invest in small to medium businesses harnessed to the interest of the governing structure in place. in such a situation there would be no possibility for capitalism. cycles of business, especially in the manufacture of products would easily be carried through, ended, more advance cycle take their places, ensuring investment capital stays in place to maintain any part of the society that comes to depend on the business cycle in place.

as it stands now a corporation invests in a region, harnesses everything to its productive cycle and when that runs its course we discover that the region has been red-lined..that is the corporation takes its profits and moves to a location less developed and cheaper now than the developed region it now leaves to rust and decay, back into poverty

so what do we do in the west indies?

you see we have all such experience to draw on. absolutely nothing stops us from learning the lessons of history and applying them to our life. as it stands we really have no choice but to federat. but international capitlaism prevents us from doing so....

will edit and continue... when I am done some work I have to do for a client..in a day or 2

[Gils]

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[Gils]

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